First minister John Swinney: 'Eradicating child poverty is the best thing I can do for Scotland'

John Swinney became Scotland’s first minister almost by accident. Over the course of his 25-year-plus political career he’s held a bagful of senior government portfolios, including education, finance, deputy first minister and minister for Covid recovery. He’d also been an MP and former leader of the SNP in opposition. But following the resignation of Nicola Sturgeon in March 2023, he stepped back and looked for a quieter life.

What followed was Humza Yousaf’s short, disastrous reign. As Yousaf exited, with the SNP teetering in the polls and Labour resurgent in Scotland as in the rest of the UK, the party did not fancy another bruising leadership battle.

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In strode John Swinney, 60, the old stager, the calming voice, to steady things. He puts his calmness down to running – he did an early morning 5k through the streets of Edinburgh today. He took over in May this year. While he hasn’t always left departments glowing in success, he remains well liked across the political spectrum, a trustworthy straight shooter. That may not be enough to bring the SNP back from the brink in next spring’s Scottish election. The party lost 38 of their 47 Westminster seats in the general election. John Swinney insists he can still win. It would be odd if he said otherwise.

The focus on independence has receded somewhat, with more energy applied to fixing the day to day rather than the constitutional. It means Scotland’s role as a centrifugal force in the future of the union has lessened. Swinney’s clarion call is on poverty, particularly eradicating child poverty. It was the first thing he said on assuming office. He maintains that today.

“It’s the best thing I can do for Scotland,” he says. “I’ve got to make sure that all the resources of the Scottish government are focused in a way to make the biggest impact possible on the issues that are in my heart.”

At Big Issue, we support his ambition. We meet at John Swinney’s office in Holyrood just as our Big Issue Poverty Zero campaign launches. In a number of days, Scotland’s Challenge Poverty Week will begin. 

THE BIG ISSUE: How realistic is achieving your ambition of getting rid of child poverty? 

John Swinney: We have to focus on making it happen. I’ve got to get government lined up, right across the board. It’s a combination of some direct intervention measures, making sure, as the programme for government set out in September, [there are] a collection of other interventions that are focused on the needs of families to help them to be lifted out of poverty. So that might be a combination of early learning and childcare, it might be transport arrangements, it might be housing, it might be employability, it might be issues around mental wellbeing.

My view is that although money is tight, there’s still a lot of money getting spent in Scotland. I want to see that focused on the big themes that the government is operating on, eradicating child poverty, growing the economy, getting to net zero, and improving our public services. Specifically on the poverty agenda, I am hoping, that I will have a more favourable climate to support me from the United Kingdom government compared to what we’ve had for the last 14 years.

• John Swinney on poverty, independence and wanting Scotland to be the best place in the world to grow up
• Humza Yousaf on working with Labour, multiculturalism’s success and calling for a Gaza ceasefire

All this is noble in plan. The idea of combining efforts and elements of the state rather than having them work in silos makes sense. But where is the detail? £500m in cuts to spending was announced weeks ago and we’re not even at the Scottish budget yet. Homeless figures for Scotland are diabolical – the highest number of children ever in temporary accommodation. What practical measures will you take? 

I’ll give you a practical example. In Clackmannanshire, over 90% of two-year-olds who are eligible for early learning and childcare are [getting it], so that enables their families to give them some prospect of being able to get economically active and to get into the labour market, to begin to boost household income. In other local authorities in the country figures range down to as low as about 30% so that’s an entitlement that those children have, and their families have, but they’re not getting it because [things] just aren’t connected. Why is it happening in Clackmannanshire? Because the whole family wellbeing support and the council have corralled different services around families, so they’re beginning to make the impact. 

When it comes to issues around housing, I’m challenging our people internally in government about what are the most effective measures we can take to boost the supply of housing. That’s the question I’m asking because if, for example, we can get more houses available for people faster, then we can make a dent in some of these numbers. 

I accept the numbers are too high, so we’ve got to be open to intervening in a way that can make a more tangible difference than perhaps we’ve been able to do up until now. That’s very much where I’m pointing government. We need to make sure every authority is up to 90%.

Will it not become more difficult for local authorities to implement those kinds of joined-up measures if council tax is frozen and there isn’t enough money in the pot? 

The issue of council tax freeze will be sorted out in the budget in December. The council tax is frozen for this year. I said to local government last week that we would have substantive engagement with them about budget priorities before we set our budget in December – and we’ve got to wait to see what the UK budget throws up on 30 October. 

I want to see investment in our public services. I’ve been in government for years. I’ve seen the growing problem that has been emerging about our public finances, and I wanted to make that point clearly in the
election. What worries me about the current environment is that I look at the rhetoric of the new Labour government, and I think, how can your solution to the mess that’s been caused by austerity be more austerity?

Were you frustrated that your predecessor froze council tax, given how it was going to lead to problems? 

At that time, the absolutely phenomenal issue was the cost of living and government was looking for ways, practically and tangibly, to help families.

That sounds as though you don’t support it. 

I’ve got to listen to local government. And you know, people have got to pay the council tax and they’re still struggling financially. The assurance I’ll give is that I’ll be thinking through very, very carefully all the interactions and interconnections of the different policy steps that we take to make sure that we get them right for people in Scotland on the big issues that I’m concerned about.

Do you feel that you’ve been handed something of a poisoned chalice? You’ve had many jobs in government, you’ve been in politics your entire life. Finally, you get to run things, and it’s a bit of a mess. You have a bold agenda but there’s a chance that you will only have six to eight months to deliver. Do you think you can win the election? 

I don’t take the view I don’t have much time. The election’s a long way off. A lot of water to go under the bridge between now and then. The most recent poll said I’ll win. 

This has come at the right moment in my life. When I stood down from office I thought, I’ve done my bit. I had a year where I was recovering from being in office, because it’s very, very demanding. When this all happened in late April, early May, I was completely rested. I was embarking on government with a fresh spirit, mentally and physically rested. And also I’m able to come into the office of first minister, which is the most extraordinary privilege in my life, something I never thought I would do, and with bags of experience, but also with a bit of time out, to see things from a different perspective.

What is the one thing, then, that your lifetime in public service has given you that makes you believe that you’re now in a place to get to grips with poverty? 

The deepest of understandings of how the public finances that underpin our public services, if they’re pointed in the right direction, can be phenomenally impactful. If someone was to say to me, you’ve come in office and oh my goodness, you’ve narrowed the focus of the government, and you’ve put its pressure onto child poverty, I’d be quite happy to accept that as a judgement, because that’s what I’ve done. I’ll make an impact in the steps towards eradicating child poverty. It’s the best thing I can do for Scotland.

That’s twice you’ve said about using public finances pointed in the right direction which sounds as though you’re going to take something from one place and point it in what you say is the right direction. Are you softening people up for cuts? 

I think we’ve got some tough decisions about the public finances, which I think will be made tougher by the fact that the Labour government’s not going to desert austerity. I can’t fathom that. I just don’t know what they’re thinking. All the evidence tells us that the austerity experiments from 2010 were a total disaster. All the issues that you could reasonably put to me have been made worse by austerity. What I’ve got to do is make sure that all the resources of the Scottish government are focused in a way to make the biggest impact possible on the issues that are in my heart.

Do you have a good relationship with Keir Starmer? 

Yes. 

Do you speak to him often? 

He’s the prime minister. He’s got a lot on his plate. And as first minister, I’ve got a lot on my plate. I spoke to him about five o’clock on the Friday night he became prime minister. That’s an act of somebody who’s serious about trying to pursue a respectful relationship. If I needed to speak to him, I’d be able to.

That’s certainly a better relationship than what Humza Yousaf told Big Issue he enjoyed with Rishi Sunak. Given that you have this direct line, do you think that you can influence him on policy, perhaps around poverty?

You have the secretary of state for work and pensions and the secretary of state for education running a task force on eradicating child poverty, and they’ve asked for engagement with us. We’ll get engaged with that, and we’ll try to shape that agenda. So in a sense, I don’t know the answer to your question yet, but I will go into it in a spirit of trying to make as much headway as I possibly can do on that agenda.  

Would you look to raise more taxes to beat poverty? 

Well, we’ve got judgements to make about that in the budget process in December, and we’ll have to set it out within the context of the budget. [Without enough votes on his own side to guarantee the budget being ratified by parliament, Swinney admits it will be “a challenge” to get it through]. We’ve got to pursue that with colleagues in other parties.

At Big Issue we are calling on governments across the UK to adopt a Poverty Zero approach. We are asking political parties to enter into a statutory duty to say, right, we’re going to meet certain tasks in the lifetime of the parliament to bring down poverty in the same way as we have with net zero. These targets would be legally binding. Would you back this plan?

I’m very sympathetic to that. We’ve obviously got statutory targets on child poverty, so we’ve kind of gone into this territory, and it puts a discipline on the thinking of government to achieve its objectives. I
welcome that, because it requires that focused action that is necessary to ensure that we can succeed in these objectives. 

And that’s the challenge of government. That there’s always things happening that can draw you away in different directions. You know events happen. I think what is good about the structure and proposition that you’re putting to me is that it enables a focus in government.

On budgets, finally, have you ever accepted any bungs to get clothes? Ever fancied somebody else picking up the tab for a really good tailor? 

My jaw dropped when I heard that story. I just thought, that’s what your pay’s for. So you buy your clothes like everybody else.

John Swinney’s quickfire questions

Oasis or Blur? Abstain.

Not allowed Can I say The Jam?

Strictly or I’m a Celebrity? My father watches I’m A Celebrity. I can’t stomach either.

Starmer or Jenrick? Starmer.

Glasgow or Edinburgh?

Edinburgh… I was born in Edinburgh!

That’s going to cost you

Robbie Burns or Seamus Heaney? That’s a very hard one, very hard one, different genres, completely, completely different. Burns. But I love Heaney’s work.

Independence for Scotland, or an end to child poverty? Independence for Scotland would make sure we can sort it.

Big Issue is demanding an end to extreme poverty. Will you ask your MP to join us?

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