London mayor Sadiq Khan: 'What would I do if I saw someone stealing nappies? Take my wallet out and pay'

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says if he saw someone shoplifting baby food or nappies, he’d take out his wallet and pay for the goods. 

In a new interview with Big Issue on his re-election campaign trail, the Labour mayor answered questions from Big Issue readers and vendors, including the question: “Hypothetically, if you saw someone shoplifting essentials in a supermarket, what would you do?“

Visibly moved by the hypothetical scenario, Khan replied. “What upsets me is the tags you have now, on nappies and baby foods because of the issue this is related to.

“I’ve not seen somebody, by the way, who’s shoplifted from a supermarket. But in the hypothetical case, I suspect I’d l take my wallet out, and I would pay for it.”

The question comes after an escalation of shoplifting as the cost of living crisis rages on. The British Retail Consortium said there were around eight million incidents in the 12 months to March 2023. Police recorded 339,206 cases in the same period, a 24% increase on the previous year.

Sadiq Khan was speaking to the Big Issue after a speech at St John’s Church in Waterloo, London, during which he vowed to end rough sleeping in the capital by 2030.

• ‘Consign it to history’: Sadiq Khan pledges to end rough sleeping in London by 2030
• Would you prosecute a child for stealing baby formula? Shoplifting’s rise amid cost of living crisis

He described the mayoral election as an opportunity to “condemn the scandal of rough sleeping to history, not just for a short time but for all time”.

City Hall’s rough sleeping budget rose from £8.45m in 2016 to £36.3m in 2023, and in this latest announcement, Sadiq Khan pledged an additional £10m of funding over the next three years. 

The money will go toward doubling the number of ‘Ending Homelessness Hubs’ in the city.

The mayor, who faces competition from the Conservative candidate Susan Hall, was also introduced to Big Issue coordinator Sid, whose pitch is located outside the church – famed for its association with helping homeless people.

Speaking semi-privately, the pair were seen in deep conversation, before Sadiq Khan shook Sid’s hand and posed for photographs.

“I told him he was only the second most important person I’ve ever met,” Sid said of his mayoral meeting.

“The first most important,” he added with a grin, “was Lady Di.” 

Sadiq Kahn also answered questions on refugee homelessness, grassroots music venues, hygiene banks and free school meals. 

Big Issue: You got a chance to speak to one of our coordinators Sid earlier, what did you speak about?

SK: Well, firstly, what was great is that my nickname used to be Sid, so it’s quite nice when somebody’s got sort-of the same name as me. But look, I’m in awe of the work the Big Issue has been doing. I know John [Bird, Big Issue co-founder] very well, but also coordinators, vendors and so forth. And Sid is somebody who has got dignity, self-esteem, and pride – why wouldn’t he? And what the Big Issue has done is allowed him to have those issues. Without breaching confidences, he’s now rough sleeping again, because you know, all of us have complexities in life. You can be a rough sleeper, back on your feet, get your own home, and then unfortunately, something happens, and you’re back on the streets. And I think this issue of empathy, and you know, but for the grace of god… is what London is all about – we are good Samaritans, we don’t walk on the other side. We are the keeper of our brother and sister. And the great thing about Sid is he’s a coordinator. So he works with other vendors across London. In fact, his patch is here, [outside St John’s Church in] Waterloo. And it’s lovely hearing from him.

Centrepoint responded to your announcement pledging to end rough sleeping in London by 2030. They said while they shared your ambition, there’s only so much the mayor and local authorities can do to solve homelessness. Do you feel limited?

SK: As ever, I agree with Centrepoint. Look, over the last eight years, we’ve made huge progress. We’ve supported more than 16,000 Londoners off our streets, more than three-quarters for good. We’ve got record numbers of outreach teams going out to support those sleeping rough, whether they’re in a doorway in a car or whatever. If somebody sees somebody sleeping rough who may need support, you can go to the StreetLink website and our charities and partners will provide them with support. We’ve built more than 1,500 homes reserved for rough sleepers and long term residents in addition to record numbers of council homes.

What I’ve announced today is £10m of additional support for doubling the rough sleeping hubs and closer working with councils and chairs. But I’ve got to be honest, we’re only going to end rough sleeping with a change of government. Why do I say that? Well for two reasons. One is because we’re here in St John’s Church in Waterloo, which lived through the cardboard city in the 80s and literally almost ended rough sleeping in the 90s and 00s. That should give us hope that we can end rough sleeping, but the second big issue is we know the causes of rough sleeping have more than doubled in the last 14 years due to government policy, right? From no-fault evictions where one out of four people sleeping rough was a private tenant, changes in welfare benefits laws, the two-child benefit cap, not building enough Council homes, not building enough affordable homes. So the conveyance of rough sleepers across the country continues to be an issue. With a change of government working with a Labour mayor, we can, by the end of this decade, end rough sleeping for good.

In the last few months, there’s been an uptick in the number of refugees ending up on the streets. What additional support is there for that community?

SK: If somebody is sleeping rough we shouldn’t distinguish how we give, just because they have no recourse to public funds. I understand the challenges the charities and councils have because they can’t get a revenue stream for somebody who does not have recourse to public funds. It’s a big issue to do with us leaving the European Union, the lack of support for asylum seekers and refugees. And so we’re going to try and support those charities and community groups doing great work with people sleeping rough who aren’t eligible for public funds. But ultimately, that’s why we need a change of government, because we need to not just deal with the causes of people sleeping rough, but also support them off our streets. There are some great charities, by the way, who support rough sleepers from overseas and make the transition back to their country of origin if they want to return. We’re against people being criminalised because they’re sleeping rough and that’s why it’s really important to understand that around half of those sleeping rough in London today are British, roughly speaking. Everyone needs assistance. How are we going to end rough sleeping if we’re only focused on British people?

Talking about the criminalisation of homeless people, the Criminal Justice Bill could see rough sleepers face jail or a fine of up to £2,500 for an “excessive smell”. Of course, there are also hygiene banks all over the country right now and millions of Brits can’t afford hygiene products. What do you have to say about the rise of these banks?

SK: I’ve become so immune to the nastiness, the cruelty of this government, that I almost can’t be appalled anymore. Until I saw this proposal. I mean, the idea that you would criminalise somebody because they are kind of smelly. When you speak to and listen to people sleeping rough, they’re not sure where they’re getting the next meal from. They’re not sure where they’re going to be sleeping tonight. They’re not sure when they’ll have the next shower. Rather than addressing those issues, the government wants to criminalise them. And I just think that tells you something about the values of this government. They promised at the start of this parliament they would end rough sleeping. Now as we approach the election, they’re going to criminalise somebody for being smelly. What I think the government should instead be doing is looking at why more people are sleeping rough, why it’s more than doubled over the last 14 years or so and also how they can help rough sleepers with a shower, or with a meal, or with somebody to stay.

You’ve promised to continue free school lunches for older primary school children for four more years. What about during the school holidays? 

SK: I was concerned in relation to what happens to those children who are eligible for free school meals during the school holidays. And it shouldn’t have taken Marcus Rashford to bring this to the public’s attention. So we’ve done a number of things. In addition to every child who goes to a state primary school in London receiving a nutritious free school meal, we’ve also got a free holiday meals programme. So over the course of the last year, we’ve provided more than 10 million meals. And I’ve extended it because I recognise people need to eat meals during the school holidays, as well. We work with great groups like The Felix Project and many others to make sure we can get these meals out to not just children, but to their families, as well. As long as I’m mayor, we’re going to carry on helping those Londoners who are the most vulnerable and need the most support.

Hypothetically, if you were in a supermarket, and you saw someone shoplifting baby food, what would you do?

SK: That’s a situation that I’m afraid has increased in the last three years with the cost of living crisis. I’ve not seen somebody, by the way, who’s shoplifted from a supermarket. What upsets me is the tags you have now, on nappies and baby foods, because of the issue that this is in relation to. In the hypothetical case, I suspect I’ll take my wallet out, and I would pay for it.

And do you give money to homeless people or people sleeping rough?

SK: What I do is I give money to those charities we work with. We have a Christmas appeal, which goes to the brilliant charities we work with. I’m really impressed and proud when I see in London, when somebody’s outside a shop, asking for money and [a passerby] asks that person ‘Is there anything I can get you from the shop?’ Whether it’s a sandwich, a drink, a bag of crisps or a chocolate bar. And treating that person with dignity. One of the reasons why we launched the rough sleepers charter, here at St John’s Church, was to remind us what it means to be a Londoner; a sense of empathy, being a good Samaritan and so forth. It’s not for me to dictate to people how they give money and so forth. I personally would try to help people and see what their needs are. I know the challenges there are in relation to those who are alcohol dependent and those who have drug dependency issues. And so I understand the arguments on both sides, it’s for people to make their own decision.

There’s talk of London wanting to become a 24-hour city. But if grassroots venues keep closing, it won’t even be a 12-hour city. How do you propose helping these kinds of venues?

SK: So many years before I became mayor, the number of grassroots venues was reduced by more than half. And so we had a deliberate strategy to support not just the big venues that everyone knows but the grassroots venues. The sort of venues that Ed Sheeran played in, Adele played in, and others played in on the pathway to becoming the mega stars that they are. Before the pandemic, we’d managed to make more progress.

We changed the planning law, I’ll give you an example – if you’ve got a small grassroots venue, and suddenly next door new flats are built, or the neighbours start complaining about the noise, I’ve said, ‘You as a new developer, have to put noise and insulation in. Don’t complain and make the grassroots venues close down because of breach of licencing, and so forth. So the ‘Agent for Change’ policy has really transformed things in London. The problem then got exacerbated by COVID, by the cost of doing business in a crisis, but also by Brexit as well. So we’re doing lots of things to support grassroots venues.

We’ve got a cultural risks team at city hall that supports them in relation to negotiating business rates, but also getting support for them as well. When it comes to a developer trying to close a venue because they had to build a new development – we require them to make sure there’s a grassroots venue on that new development as well. London is the cultural capital of the world, which helps grassroots venues as well. I think we’ve got to recognise though, that if we don’t sort all this out, it begs the question of where the next Stormzy or Dave, or Adele or Ed Sheeran, or The Stones or The Police are going to come from, that’s why it’s really important to invest in these venues. And also, it’s one of the joys of living in London, right? We don’t want a dormitory city. We want a city that’s got great music, great gigs, great bars, great restaurants great theatres. It’s really important – it’s who we are.

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